On today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to longevity expert Leslie Kenny. @lesliesnewprime   Leslie shares her personal journey of overcoming autoimmune diseases and infertility through patient empowerment and alternative therapies. She emphasizes the importance of partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments that resonate with individuals. Leslie's story highlights the power of lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet and the use of anti-aging molecules like spermidine in improving health and reversing the aging process.    Our conversation covers the topic of spermidine and its role in healthy aging. Spermidine is a compound found in our diet and produced by our gut biome. It is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Our conversation also touches on gluten-free options for spermidine, the importance of fiber in the diet, and the potential benefits of systemic enzymes.    Leslie also shared her personal experience with hypothyroidism and the importance of finding a doctor who will help you uncover solutions for your reproductive health.    Podcast Takeaways:

• Partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments can empower patients to take control of their health.
• Lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet, can have a significant impact on autoimmune diseases and overall health.
• Anti-aging molecules like spermidine and rapamycin have the potential to slow down the aging process and improve fertility.
• Maintaining a balanced hormonal system is crucial for reproductive health and overall well-being.
• Spermidine can promote cell renewal and recycling. Spermidine is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods.
• Fiber is important for the gut biome to produce spermidine.
• Finding a doctor who believes in you and is willing to explore your symptoms is crucial.

  Guest Bio:   Leslie is a longevity expert, and co-founder of the prestigious Oxford Longevity Project, a non-profit that brings scientists together to discuss breakthroughs around the science of ageing and autophagy, which is our body's natural cell recycling system.   www.oxfordhealthspan.com - Use coupon code WHOLESOMELOTUS for 15% off all items!   https://www.instagram.com/lesliesnewprime/ https://oxfordlongevityproject.org       Learn more about my new book "The Way of Fertility" here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Leslie.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:02) Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure.   Michelle (00:05) So I would love for you to share your story of how you got into the work that you do today. And I know that you're very passionate. We just had a little pre -talk and I'm very excited to get started.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:14) You   Well, my story is one of patient empowerment, just like you. And it started, as it can with many women, with a fertility quest. So in my mid to late 30s, I really wanted to have a baby and found that I was having problems. So started with IUI, did three of those, didn't work, and then moved on to IVF.   And it was as I was doing my fifth IVF round with donor eggs, I might add, and being mixed race, I'll tell you, it's not easy to find a donor, you know? And it was a high stakes game, as it were. And right before embryo transfer, I began to notice pain in my hands. I was having trouble.   Michelle (00:54) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:08) using scissors, turning doorknobs, turning faucets. And I just thought, strange, I think this is probably what arthritis feels like. I better just have it checked out since obviously I want this IVF with donor eggs to go perfectly. And I went to the doctor, she ran some tests. I thought, you know, they'd say, you know, it's something, have steroids do something that I'd heard of before. And instead she called me and asked me to have a meeting with her in her office.   Michelle (01:17) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:38) and always a bad sign, right? If they can't explain it to you over the phone, and if it's not the nurse telling you, there's nothing to worry about. So I went and talked to her and she said, you do have arthritis, it's rheumatoid arthritis. This is where your body is attacking your joints. And here are some pre -filled syringes that you can inject into your belly, they're immune suppressants to basically   Michelle (01:40) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (02:08) halt your immune system from attacking your body. And, and I immediately said, Hmm, don't I want my immune system to be strong? Like, don't I need that? And she said, well, normally you would, but in this case, it looks like your body is fighting cancer, except you're trying to destroy your own tissues. So I thought, okay, well, fine. Got the drugs. these are tiny diabetic needles. It'll be okay.   And then she said, but you also have something else. You have lupus. And that I'd never heard of. It was almost as if she'd said, you you have funny tree disease or something. It just made no sense to me. I didn't know what it was, had never heard of it. And I said, what's that? And she said, another autoimmune disease. And I said, okay, so what's the prescription for that?   And she said, unfortunately, there isn't a prescription for that. There's really nothing that we have right now to treat it. And you will slowly and progressively get worse. And I said, this is really not a good time for me to have this happen because I'm doing my fifth IVF with donor eggs. I'm waiting for embryo transfer. This is a terrible time. Can't we do something?   something else, anything else? Is there anything I can do? No, there's nothing you can do. Like, could I do my diet, my sleep? No, there's nothing you can do. Well, but what about this round? You know, I've done a lot to tee this up and a lot of money has gone into this. As you probably know, I've put in over a hundred thousand US dollars at this point in time into all of these treatments. And she said, I wouldn't do it. Don't do it.   you have a good five years left. And I thought, okay, well, that's a big statement to make. And I was so gobsmacked by it.   Michelle (04:08) That's crazy.   Wait, wait, She was saying you have five years left to live? Is that what she was saying?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (04:16) That's how I interpreted it. That's how I interpreted that if I, if this was successful, if this round was successful, I would only be able to parent this child for five years or four years, I guess, as it were. And I, it was a lot to process. you know, if you're a patient and you're told you have one thing that's a lot to take on, you know, and then you're thinking about.   the treatment protocol and the things you have to do. And I think already, if it's not a tablet to swallow, but you're injecting yourself, that's another big thing to take on board. Then an illness that you've never heard of before where they say there's no treatment, there's no cure, and then she says five years left. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, thinking, have this, I want to become a mother. I have this.   cycle I have to go through, we're going to embryo transfer. My uterus has to be in good shape. What are you doing? What are you saying? How does this impact that? Because I've got acupunctures lined up for embryo transfer, right, before and after. And so I did have at least the presence of mind to say to her, can I, well, could this be a false positive? She said, no, we've done multiple types of tests.   Michelle (05:11) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (05:35) and they all come back consistently indicating that you have these diseases. So then I said, can I test again? And she said, she shrugged her shoulders and said, sure, it's your insurance. So I vowed then and there that I would test again. And in the meantime, I would do everything possible. didn't matter what it was, whether it was my in uterine massage, which I did, or visualization, which I did.   Michelle (06:00) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (06:05) or trauma work, which I did, or, you know, new therapy, intravenous immunoglobulin transfusions, which I did, an anti-inflammatory diet. I was gonna do it all. I was gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And any woman who is trying to get pregnant knows exactly where I was and that feeling of, I've gotta make this happen. And I will just pull out all the stops. We're doing a full court press, right? And...   And so I did all those things and I came back within six months for a regular sort of review with your doctor. She opened the folder and she clearly not looked at the results ahead of time. And she said, well, look at that. You, don't have lupus and you don't have RA. And I said, would you like to know what I did? And she said, no, that's okay.   Michelle (06:54) What?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:04) And I said, well, that is, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty groundbreaking, right?   Michelle (07:11) Yeah,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:12) so in any event, I was so, I was so shocked by all of this and, really for me, the penny dropped that doctors don't know everything that we treat them as if they must, that they are the Oracle and that they are the, the guide to whom we can outsource our health problems.   Michelle (07:23) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:35) But in fact, we have to work in partnership with them. And sometimes they're not willing for insurance or liability reasons to talk about or consider alternative therapies that might work. But we patients have the opportunity to explore those things that resonate with us that might have a meaningful impact. so my journey has really begun   Michelle (07:38) Yes.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (08:04) as a patient advocate, really telling other women, you have more power than you think to move the needle on your health. And as a matter of fact, the things that you do might even be more important than what happens when you go to your acute care doctor, right? When you go into the doctor's office or into a hospital. And it has then...   taken me on a journey all the way to Oxford, England, where I ended up meeting a wonderful group of scientists here, a number of whom I helped fundraise for their companies for, all in the regenerative medicine space, and some of whom I've worked on longevity, healthy longevity advocacy.   other scientists whom I've worked on to bring an interesting anti -aging molecule called spermidine to market. So those are the...   Michelle (09:04) Yes. Is that, that's, that comes from   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:10) We can get it from wheat germ. We can get it from mushrooms. can get it from a huge variety of foods that are all plants. Essentially, if you want spermidine, it's almost exclusively in plants. only animal source is chicken liver, which is ironic because, of course, I remember my mother saying, you have to eat chicken liver. So moms do know, right? They've got a wisdom.   Michelle (09:19) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:36) But it comes from plant sources. We also make it in our tissues. We moms make it in our breast milk. When we give it to our babies, it's there to help them grow. Men, of course, make it in their seminal fluid. is in there because DNA wraps itself around spermidine. And it's very tightly wound.   Michelle (10:00) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:04) Normally DNA is wrapped around something called histone bond. It's too big to really fit into semen. And it's also there in semen as an anti -inflammatory because it turns out that when men make sperm, it's a high reactive oxygen species event. Women and men can both make it in our gut biome as well. so those would be the main, the three sources would be from our tissue production.   Michelle (10:27) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:33) And that falls, that declines dramatically similar to the decline in production of estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin as we get older. And then the second area is the microbiome and then third is from our food.   Michelle (10:51) So interesting. So let's go back and talk about what, what do you think it was specifically that changed? Like, what do you think happened with your body? Because you came into the doctor and you had all the signs that showed that you had two different autoimmune diseases that she could pick up. And then you changed your diet, you changed your lifestyle. You really went through so much. and of course it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what specifically, but now that you know what you know, and this is   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:03) Yeah.   Yum, yum.   Michelle (11:21) the work that you're doing. What are some of the things that come to mind?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:22) Hmm.   I went on an anti -inflammatory diet. So one of the first things I did was I researched a lot about both of these illnesses and I could see that inflammation was part of the root cause. And I'd heard about a diet called the Zone Anti -inflammatory Diet. This was popular in the early 2000s. And so I did that and that had a high emphasis on omega -3fatty acids.   on extra virgin olive oil. These are anti -inflammatories. It had a high emphasis on plants. And so my diet changed dramatically from more meat and charcuterie, sort of salami, these types of things over to plants. I also eliminated things which were known to be inflammatory triggers for me. So I had an allergy test done.   I could see that dairy was a problem, gluten was a problem, eggs happened to be a problem, which was a shame because I loved eggs. But we can't eat them every day and think the body won't notice. We have to kind of mix it up and have a diverse diet. So I essentially removed the inflammatory triggers to the immune system. I added in things that were naturally anti -inflammatory, like the omega -3s. And at the same time, when I did the intravenous immunoglobulin,   Michelle (12:44) you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (12:50) I reset my immune system and there were studies in, there were small groups of patients with both rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who had done IVIG already in 2004 when I was diagnosed and I could see it work for them and I sort of felt like I have nothing to lose. It's kind of this or I wait for the inevitable.   And I did have people tell me, don't do the IVIG, because this was the time of mad cow disease. And people were quite concerned about prions, these proteins in blood plasma. And they were worried that you might be able to get that or hepatitis C. These were things that had been transmitted through transfusion products previously. But I still felt that, what, five years?   Michelle (13:25) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (13:49) I have nothing to lose. So I'm so glad that I did do that. know that everyone has to weigh up the risk -benefit analysis of any new treatment and their own situation. But for me, that was a decision that I made, and I'm so glad I did, because I spent 20, my insurance company spent $24 ,000 US on two transfusions, eight hours in total. And I have   Michelle (13:52) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:19) Going into remission meant that I have foregone over a million US dollars worth of immune suppressing drugs or chemo drugs because often we autoimmune patients get moved on to methotrexate, which is a chemo drug. I've not had to do any of those over these 20 years. And of course, I also don't live in pain and I don't.   Michelle (14:29) Mm Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:45) live in fear of because I'm suppressing my immune system, I have to avoid social situations where people might have a cold and give it to me and compromise my immune system. So it was a fantastic outcome for me. It's not one I think a lot of people hear about, but I think they should.   Michelle (15:06) for sure. I mean, it's good to hear everything. And I agree with you that everybody has to really assess their own personal situation. I think, I believe in the innate intuition that's kind of like our body's intelligence speaking to us, just like it does when we have an allergy or we feel some things off when we eat something. So I think that that is a really important component to that. And it's the thing that spoke to you when you were at your doctor's office, because it,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (15:20) Yeah, agreed.   Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) You could have just said, okay, I'm going to completely bypass any questions that I have and fully just accept everything that I'm given. But something inside of you said, wait, hold up. Let me just do this again. Let me look at this. me think about this. So I really believe in that. think that is so important and important for people to hear because so often we do that. We bypass our own internal judgment and knowing.   You said something important is partnering up with your provider so that it's not an all or nothing. Of course you're going to utilize and you did, you got benefit from getting those tests because that woke you up to doing so many new and amazing things in your own life and implementing a better diet and so on. As far as Omega -3 goes, this is just something that I've been hearing of late.   that some of the supplements go rancid and that it makes it worse. it, have you heard about that?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (16:36) Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, and apparently what you need to do is take this supplement and put it into the freezer. And if it gets cloudy, that is what I've heard is that then that's not good. It's supposed to remain clear throughout. I'm not an omega -3 fatty acid expert. I have lived for a number of years, very nearby one here in Oxford, Professor John Stein.   Michelle (16:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:05) who's done a lot of the research on mental health issues and omega -3s and how important they are for brain health. But yeah, I think, you know, get it from your diet first and foremost. Fatty fish is a great source, right? Yeah. Salmon, if we, you haven't already eaten all of it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:18) Right. Good fish. Yeah.   Wild caught, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. Well, also just the mercury in some of the salmon, you know, the chemicals, but wild caught, I always say just.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:33) Yeah, wild caught. Yeah. And also anchovies, mackerel, sardines, right? The small fish are a really good source of omega -3 fatty acids. And those tend not to have the mercury. Obviously, if we're trying to get pregnant, mercury, definitely not your friend. So yeah.   Michelle (17:38) Sardines, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I always say, you know, if you're not going to have it when you're pregnant and if you don't have it when you're trying to get pregnant because tuna, for example, they always caution not to have that because of the high mercury, but you don't want that in your system if you're trying to conceive. So for I was very intrigued by your story and I was also intrigued by what you do because when you think about egg quality, sperm quality and really reproduction,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:02) Yum. Yum.   Hmm.   Michelle (18:18) you think anti -aging, that's like ultimately anti -aging in a nutshell. Like that's really what I do for people that I work with. And it benefits me because I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to apply a lot of these things as I learn. it definitely, but that's what it is. It's anti -aging. Like I'm big on meditation, which has also been shown take our clocks back, but food and diet and certain supplements,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:20) Mm -hmm. 100%. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (18:46) can actually shift and slow down your aging or sometimes even like reverse your biological clock. And I know you're the expert in this specific topic. So I'd love for you to talk about that and what has been discovered and seen in this subject.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:57) Sure.   So when we are at our peak health is when we are reproductively capable. And we visually know this when we go out and we see a woman with glossy long hair, with long eyelashes, with healthy radiant skin, of healthy body weight, we know that that is someone who is   who is really attractive and why are they attractive? Because they are at their reproductive height. And interestingly, all of the things I have described are also linked with your spermidine levels. And so that's quite interesting. But also, your hormones are in perfect balance when you can reproduce and that includes not just the usual female sex hormones,   Michelle (19:36) Mm   Mmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:01) but also your thyroid hormones. So I'm also a Hashimoto's survivor as well. And so I'm a hypothyroid patient and that is also really important. So it's got to be in perfect balance then. And one of the things that happens with some of these anti -aging molecules is that they extend fertility.   Michelle (20:07) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:28) partly by reversing your age, but they will start the reproductive cycle back up for some people. And it kind of depends how far away from menopause you are. But we've certainly had clients who've said, what happened? I've been in menopause for two years and I've gotten my cycle back. And...   On the one hand, want to say, congratulations, that's great. But they're thinking, this means I can't wear white trousers now, right? And I thought I was done with the pads and the tampons. So I know it's a little bit of a double -edged sword. We women are often thinking about, how do we get rid of our cycles? But in fact, they are nature's way of saying that we are in peak health and are capable of bringing another life into this world.   Michelle (20:55) Hahaha   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (21:22) You know, we do have to bear that in mind. Of course, the same is true for men. And we know there's a problem with testosterone declining in young men, whether it's due to endocrine disruptors in our food and our water supply, toxins in the air. There is a challenge to men as well. And we do want to see them at their reproductive best in order to be at optimum health, too.   And that is also something that these geroprotectors, these senolytic drugs, these anti -aging molecules can do. They seem to restore fertility in men as well as women.   Michelle (22:03) Amazing. And so let's break it down for people who have never heard of these molecules and these supplements and spermidine. So take a step by step, like, so that people listening can understand what it is.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (22:07) Yeah.   Sure. OK. Well, first, me just say that there are scientists believe that there are 12 reasons why we get older. And these are known as the hallmarks of aging. And they include things that you and your listeners will have heard of before, things like inflammation, leaky gut, stem cell exhaustion or dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction.   So, you know, where you have no energy. Telomere shortening. So telomeres are at our in caps and they limit the number of times that we can replicate ourselves. So all of these reasons why we get older, scientists have looked at different molecules that can inhibit those, you know, us going down those pathways. And they have a list of these molecules that   inhibit certain numbers of molecules. And the two that do the most are one called rapamycin, which is a bacteria, and the other one is spermidine, which we manufacture ourselves, like I said, in our gut, in our tissues, and also we get from food. But importantly, it is found in both breast milk and in sperm, and it's so necessary for the survival   the start and survival of the next generation, that it's also in the endosperm of all plants. So these two molecules, rapamycin and spermidine are kind of the darlings of the anti -aging set. And one of spermidine's superhero powers is that it activates cell renewal and recycling.   So if we think about staying in perfect health, one of the first things we want to do is make sure that we can do is every day oven cleaning, right? And the cells do have that function. Maintenance, exactly, exactly. Now, when we're young, it happens naturally and we don't think anything of it, but as we begin to age, that process falters and the cells, the dysfunctional cells,   Michelle (24:16) Mm -hmm. It's a maintenance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:32) which we call senescent cells, they begin to stack up. And the more of these senescent or zombie cells that we have, the less well the other cells function. And I sometimes say that these zombie cells are a bit like your uncle Ted who has too much to drink at a wedding, and he begins to say inappropriate things.   Michelle (24:45) Mm   you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:56) and do really silly stunts and you just think, okay, we got to get Ted over with pot of coffee in the corner away from everybody else or he's going to ruin the party for everyone else. This is what senescent cells do to you. You have one senescent cell and it begins to leak inflammatory contents to the other cells nearby and zombie -izes them and does the same to the other cells. It's a cascade effect.   Michelle (25:09) Mm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:25) That is what spermidine can actually, one of the things it can help with in particular with immune cells, it can prevent those immune cells, well rather it can rejuvenate senescent immune cells and that is the work that was done at the University of Oxford.   Michelle (25:43) That's amazing. you moved there to work with them in the research?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:48) Well, I came here anyway. I came here because my ex, now sadly my ex, but we have two wonderful children together. He was from Oxford and moved here to be closer to his family and still close to them and absolutely fell in love with the town and just the vibe. University towns are definitely my kind of place.   Michelle (26:09) Hmm. That's nice.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:18) Just the scientific rigor here in the life sciences, it's phenomenal. It's really impressive.   Michelle (26:29) That's amazing. so the two things you're saying are spermidine and rapamycin. and so spermidine is something that you could take from supplements, but not so much rapamycin.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:39) You can't, no, not rapamycin, no. It's not something you're going to find in food. So it was basically isolated on Rapa Nui, which is one of the Eastern islands. And one of the pharmaceutical company, a researcher basically took it back home to the United States and it was later researched and found to do.   some really amazing things, one of which is that it can suppress the immune system. And this is important for people who have organ transplants because the tissue match is not perfect and their bodies necessarily want to reject any foreign material in their bodies. So if you give these patients immune suppressants to stop the rejection of the organ, they can live quite nicely with   Michelle (27:16) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (27:33) with that organ and continue in reasonable health, understanding that their immune system has been suppressed. Spermidine, though, of course, it's in our diet. It's something that our gut biome, if it's not been compromised by too much exposure to broad spectrum antibiotics, it can make. And in all of the longevity hotspots of the world, these populations of healthy centenarians, their spermidine levels are   high, they're similar to those of people who are in their 50s. And it's correlated with healthy lifespan. So I always recommend that people try to get more plants in their diet because you will get spermidine in your plants. If you can have fermented foods,   Michelle (28:12) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:29) If you don't have a problem with histamine load, and some people do for allergy, you know, if they've got allergies, but if you don't have a problem with histamine, then, you know, kimchi, sauerkraut, even things that are long matured like cheese. And a lot of people can say, I'm not allowed cheese because it'll make me gain weight. Well, yes, but there is also some spermatine there. The longer the maturity of the, of the cheese, the more it's been aged, the higher the spermatine content.   Michelle (28:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:58) Usually these are harder cheeses like a Parmesan or a cheddar. These would be good sources. And then for individuals who need extra, then a supplement makes sense. But I always say, get it first from your food. Please do not rely on a supplement, right? That's not doing, it's a disservice to think that you can just have a bunch of little pills on your plate.   Well, at first you're not going to get any satisfaction from it. But the other thing is that we need the fiber in those plants because that fiber, although our bodies don't, don't digest it, the gut biome needs that. And so you, you want to also feed the colonies in your gut biome that can make more spermidine for you. You know, we have these little pharmaceutical factories that make   Michelle (29:46) Mm   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (29:54) everything from B vitamins and serotonin, one of the happiness hormones, and spermidine. So why waste it? actually in our supplement, the wheat germ derived one, we have a fructo -oleigosaccharide in there, an FOS, can selectively feed the bacteria that make spermidine. And the reason I want it there is because that's also what's in breast milk. In breast milk, you have   these fructo -aligosaccharides, you have spermidine, sperminine, another polyamine that actually helps turn good genes on, bad genes off, and then a precursor polyamine called putrescine. So you want some fiber, basically, that's the takeaway. Please, you want the fiber, yeah, exactly, because it's always better to, what do they say? Teach a man to fish, feed him for life, right?   Michelle (30:38) With the spermidine. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (30:49) rather than just give him the fish. And that's kind of what we want to do. We want to train your body to make more of it, especially as you get older, because you'll have to eat increasing amounts of plant material to make up the shortfall of your tissue production of spermidine going offline.   Michelle (30:57) Right.   It's fascinating. So wheat germ is not necessarily gluten -free. For people who are gluten -free, what do they do?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:16) Well, OK, so yes, obviously, this is a problem in particular for autoimmune patients. And I went on the autoimmune paleo diet myself. I got rid of all gluten. I was off all lectins. Gluten is most famous lectin. So I had so many autoimmune patients getting in touch with me who'd heard my story that I actually looked for a plant source high in spermidine that was not a lectin. And I found it in an unusual strain of chlorella.   Michelle (31:28) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:45) So I went to Okinawa and had to test 120 different strains, substrains of chlorella to find the single one that had very high expression of spermidine. And we commissioned that to be grown in open -air freshwater ponds that are on land in Okinawa, but next to the ocean, but not in the ocean.   Michelle (31:46) Mm   wow.   It's wild.   huh.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:11) And that's what we use in our gluten -free product, which also has Okinawan autumn turmeric and has Okinawan lime peel. So lime peel has another autophagy activator. That's that cell renewal process. This autophagy or cell renewal activator is called nobilitan. And it's also in bergamot, in bergamot, the citrus fruit.   Michelle (32:16) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm -hmm. Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:38) And that actually, interestingly enough, is an Earl Grey tea. So if you're going to drink a tea, maybe some Earl Grey, you'll get some nobilitan in that. But that formulation was especially made for celiacs and for other autoimmune patients who really wanted the benefits of autophagy but couldn't use the defatted wheat germ version that we had brought to market first.   Michelle (32:42) wow. Interesting.   Mm   Mm   Amazing. Let me ask you a question. Have you looked into enzymes, pro proteleic? No, enzymes that are actually systemic enzymes that you have on an empty stomach. like things like wobe enzyme and yeah. And I think that there's another one, it's Nuzheim or there's another pretty well -known company. And I think it's from Europe.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:11) You mean like digestive enzymes or?   I've taken wovenzyme.   So yeah, wabenzim is German. I took that, gosh, maybe it's been around for decades and it does work. I took that from my, interesting. I took it, I didn't know that. I took it for joint pain. And so this was something that I was taking as a way to try and treat myself for the rheumatoid arthritis. So it didn't, it wasn't enough for that. I think it can help.   Michelle (33:40) It was beneficial for thyroid. Yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:59) more mild things, but definitely these are of benefit. And having a coach like you, who, you know, a trained practitioner who knows about all of the menu items that could be selected, you have the different tools, right? It's overwhelming as a patient. I mean, even just having my doctor say, just inject this one drug, that was like, whoa, can I get my head around the idea of injecting myself, right?   Michelle (34:13) Yeah, like different tools.   yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:29) So you do need a guide and I think it's great that you've got that knowledge that you can share with your clients.   Michelle (34:37) Thank you. also, so for people who are interested, is it mostly the spermidine that you're focused on?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:45) Yes, so basically we are a small all -women company and you know, women -led companies, we get around 2 % of all venture capital funding. We don't have venture capital funding like our competitors. We very much are growing organically and are looking at really focusing on something that we know very well and making the most excellent   Michelle (34:49) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:13) product on the planet. And for me, with my group of advisors, this has been the right thing to do because we've had so many raw material manufacturers and suppliers come to us telling us, try this spermidine. And when we tested in the lab, we see that it's basically a tiny amount of wheat germ, and it's been cut like a street drug with synthetic spermidine.   Michelle (35:15) Awesome.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:42) And the problem with synthetic spermidine is, firstly, OK, I am biased against the synthetic because I watch my mother take the synthetic HRT. I'm so glad I'm on bioidentical HRT. But the synthetic has never been tested for safety or efficacy in humans. So I'm reluctant to bring a product to market that has not been tested. And when it comes to fertility,   Michelle (35:43) wow.   Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:11) We know that in mouse studies where they have used synthetic spermidine, small amounts seem to help. But then when you give just a little bit more, it actually impairs fertility. so with these...   Michelle (36:22) wow. That's important. That's really important, you guys, to listen to that because that's huge.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:28) Yeah, that's huge. So the problem is finding the Goldilocks zone. Each of us is bio individual. We have different ethnic difference, genetic differences, age, body shape, height, and metabolism. All of these things mean you want the right amount for you, but we don't know what that right amount is when it comes to synthetic spermidine. With plants, however, it's not a problem.   because the body recognizes this, we have co -evolved with plant -derived spermidine for millennia. So when there's too much, the body says, right, we're going to turn this into spermine, which is going to help with turning good genes on, bad genes off with the DNA methylation. But this doesn't happen with the synthetic. I think that on the fertility front, as a woman, I would never make that.   Michelle (36:55) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:21) I would never go for something that might possibly hurt my fertility.   Michelle (37:25) absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a complete waste of time because you're trying to do all these other things and then you're going to take something that's not, that's a risk. and then I was curious, it says you were talking about it you were saying that sometimes they'll find it in certain mushrooms, cordyceps by any chance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Mmm.   it will be in cordyceps. It will be in all mushrooms and the ones that have the highest amount of swirmed in our shiitake, oyster and trumpet, but all mushrooms will have it. And, know, if you, if you don't have a problem with, mushrooms, know, this is fall, it's autumn. This is the right time to, you know, get some mushrooms into your stews and your soups and,   Michelle (37:43) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Awesome.   Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:06) It's really, it's so, so good also because it's got vitamin D and we're just coming off of this period where we've soaked up the vitamin D from the sun over the summer, but now we're going into winter and we're gonna get less. So there are so many reasons to get it also a wonderful source of fiber.   Michelle (38:16) Yeah.   Yeah, amazing. So if people are interested and want to learn more and then also want to look at your products, how can they find you?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:32) They can go to Oxford HealthSpan, like the span of a bridge, it's all one word, .com. And if they're interested in learning more about healthy aging, we do bring breakthrough scientists who talk about things, not just about cell renewal or autophagy, but talk about other things as well. We also have them talk about, say, NAD, things like this. That's at the OxfordLongevityProject .org.   Michelle (38:56) Yeah.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:01) And then I have kind of a side hustle helping my girlfriends with gray hair reversal. And that's on Leslie's new prime. Spermadine helps with that as well. It helps with hair health and eyelash and eyebrow health. That is on Leslie's new prime on YouTube. So L -E -S -L -I -E is how I spell my name.   Michelle (39:08) nice.   Fabulous. Leslie, this was fascinating. I really enjoyed talking to you. And also a key point, you got pregnant naturally at 40. Okay. important thing to mention. And I kept thinking about it as we're talking about, wait, wait, let's go. Let's go talk about that, even though it's kind of the end of the episode.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:34) I did at Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a happy ending. So, so the fifth IVF with the donor eggs didn't work. As a matter of fact, the embryologist said on embryo transfer, said, I don't know why you didn't use your eggs. Your eggs are better than this younger donor. I was like,   You're kidding me because I can't tell you how much I just sacrificed to pay for that. And, but, know, basically fast forward, I adopted a little girl from China. So I became a mom. become parents, you know, mother is a verb. It's not a noun. So that was, that was great. And as I was taking care of her, I still felt very, very tired and I couldn't understand what was going on, why I saw these other moms.   Michelle (40:02) wow.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (40:27) running around with scout troops, planting gardens, walking dogs, five children. You know, why? How do they do it? They're the same age and they have so much more energy. And I just, I did go to Dr. Google. I put in every symptom I had and it came up hypothyroid. So then,   The GP here in the UK said, no, you're in the normal range. No problem. I went to a private GP. No, you're normal. I went to a private endocrinologist. No, you're normal. And I just thought, I know I'm not. These doctors keep telling me I'm normal. I know. We patients always, if you do feel like that, follow your intuition, find a doctor who believes you, and we'll run the test. We'll work with you to uncover the mystery. It's like a murder mystery, right? So.   Michelle (41:09) Yes.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:14) So I went on patient forums. Patient forums have been great help. Went there and people said, there is one doctor who will help you and he won't just look at your blood test. A lot of doctors look at thyroid problems and they only look at your blood test, your TSH, your T3, your T4. I went to him and he looked at clinical symptoms and he also ran a cortisol test. And he said that my...   Michelle (41:33) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:43) Cortisol was the lowest he had ever seen. It was so bad, he didn't know how I was standing in front of him. And I had classic cold hands, cold feet. Yes, my hair was thinning. I was exhausted. I was breathless as I went upstairs. I was losing the outer third of my eyebrows. These are all clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. He then said,   Michelle (41:50) Wow.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:09) What you need to do is address your adrenals first because of the cortisol problem, and then two weeks after that, take some thyroid. And because I actually do not convert levothyroxine, which is a standard thyroid hormone that most people get, like 60 % of all Americans will get that, but I can't convert it into the bioavailable.   Michelle (42:22) Mm   Right. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:33) thyroid hormone known as T3. And your cell receptors only have receptors for T3, not for levothyroxine. So if you've been taking loads and loads of levothyroxine, you still feel wiped out. You probably are just like me and have a genetic, you're genetically challenged and you can take a test with Genova diagnostics. I think it's called the DIO2 genetic test, D -I -O -2. And   Michelle (42:35) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:01) here in the UK cost about 75 pounds and you then can get T3 prescribed either synthetically or you can do what I do and Hillary Clinton also does. take something, we take a desiccated pig's thyroid. In America there's Armour, There's Armour, there's Urfa, there are a few brands and that within, you know, two to three weeks basically on that   Michelle (43:16) Is that armor? Yes, yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:29) Pregnant right away. No idea. Had not even, didn't check if I was ovulating. You remember the days when you're like, you've got a thermometer under your tongue and you're checking, am I ovulating? Could it be now? And all the calendar work that you've got to do when you're trying to get pregnant, none of that. It just happened. And I was so shocked. yeah. So my daughter, Marguerite, was born, you know,   Michelle (43:38) Yeah.   That is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:57) Eight months later, was just one day shy of being premature, so I got her over the premature line. And 10 out of 10 on the Apgar score delivered at age 43.   Michelle (44:08) Amazing. mean, that is just incredible. I'm sure, I mean, I'm so excited about this episode because I just feel like it's mind blowing, first of all, just all the different stories. And it also covers things that I feel are really important. advocating for yourself as a patient. I mean, that is huge. And I think a lot of us have been in those kinds of situations. You said something that I was like, wow.   That's a quote, find a doctor who believes you. You know, because also getting different opinions is super important and it's a game changer. It'll totally change your whole journey.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (44:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. Well, look what this doctor did for me. So what none of the doctors had realized with those other two autoimmune conditions was that I had my autoimmune, the system, the immune system had not only attacked my joints and my organs, but it had attacked my thyroid. And the way that he could see it was, you know, he could see with.   Michelle (45:07) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:11) that I had all the clinical symptoms, but with an ultrasound, he could see that I had only one eighth of a thyroid left. I had so little viable thyroid left. There was just nothing of the organ left. yet, because he didn't want to fall in line here in Britain, he was actually hounded by the British Medical Council.   Michelle (45:23) Wow, that is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:35) Mary Schumann, the thyroid advocate in the United States, who's written a number of thyroid patient handbooks, actually got a campaign together to try to gather signatures. And he had tens of thousands of signatures from grateful patients. But the medical council actually wasn't listening. They wanted their protocol to be followed. And it had to be a blood protocol.   Michelle (45:55) It's so crazy to me.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:02) And this is the problem is the blood does not show everything. But of course, we patients get these data points 24 -7.We know if our hair is falling out, if we can't shift the weight, if we can't walk upstairs without getting winded, if we've got cold hands and cold feet, our partners know because they tell us, God, you're freezing. What's going on? So we need.   Michelle (46:06) you   Yeah.   Mm   Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:30) Our partners know it. If, if you happen to be sleeping with a doctor, maybe he can be a prescribed for you and he'll believe it because of the cold feet. but otherwise, you know, you have to rely on your powers of persuasion to find a doctor who's willing to go the extra mile with you and get curious. I only ask that I just find a doctor who's willing to get curious with you.   Michelle (46:35) Right? Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, I could talk to you for longer than we have. But let's say this is amazing information, like really, really, truly amazing. And I love your story. And I love the way you truly believed in yourself. And that's something that I want to tell everybody who's listening, just believe in yourself because you know, and you know what? The body is so forgiving, way more forgiving than we give it credit for. It's just a matter of   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:21) 100%.   Michelle (47:22) figuring out like what is it exactly that it needs, like just figuring it out, its own way of communication. So thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on today.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:28) Yeah.   absolutely. Thank you for having me on. really appreciate it. It was lovely chatting with you, really fun. And keep going with your amazing work. Women need guides they can trust like you, who are willing to take the extra time to get curious and share the knowledge that you've gained over the years and the hard work you put in to get pregnant yourself, right?   Michelle (47:57) Thank you so much.