Kathryn Bregman Ed.S. struggled for years to become pregnant.  She tried every diet, lotion and potion she could find.  She endured two rounds of failed egg retrievals until she realized her body was pristine, but her mind did not feel balanced.  She was suffering from stress and information overload. She was exhausted, defeated and depressed. Even though she was already in therapy, Kathryn hired a fertility mindset coach, which changed everything.  Within 6 months she got pregnant naturally and gave birth to a healthy baby girl at 40. After that, Kathryn made it her mission to spread the word of what she learned to completely transform her outcome. Today she is a Certified Life Coach and a Certified Miracle Minded Master Coach. She's also the only fertility coach in the world who trained directly under Marianne Williamson learning exclusive and cutting-edge coaching techniques. She works with private clients across the globe and runs online group programs where women find the authentic support that they need to become the moms they are meant to be.   You can find out more about Kathryn at: www.badassfertility.com Instagram: @BadassFertility Free ebook: https://badassfertility.com/fb-ad-habits/   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle's latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Catherine.   Kathryn Bregman (00:02) Hi, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's an honor to be on your show and speak with you today.   Michelle (00:10) I'm so happy you're here as well, Catherine, and I'd love for you to share your inspiring story and how you got to do this work.   Kathryn Bregman (00:13) Thank you.   Absolutely, I would love to share I became inspired to be a fertility coach and work with women who are on the journey to their babies because when I was struggling to become pregnant with my daughter, who I had at 40, after struggling for about four years to conceive, after being advised to use donor different things like that, I realized that a huge,   part of my struggle in my journey was, well, there were physical things that I'll talk about in a moment. There was a lot going on in my head space that was a huge block for me because when I first started trying to conceive with my husband, I was 36. We got married, you know, 36, and I was like, already felt behind, you know, was super concerned about.   whether or not we'd be able to conceive. I'd always had like heavy periods, but never been diagnosed with anything in particular. So I felt like nervous and a little wary. And after about trying for just two months or so, we decided to use an ovulation kit. We used an ovulation kit and I got pregnant right away. And I remember thinking, my God, why do people struggle to conceive? Just use an ovulation kit.   Michelle (01:33) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (01:41) Like it's so simple, hello, right? And then a couple of weeks later, we lost that pregnancy. And I did not get pregnant again for several years, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what we did. And I'll talk kind of briefly about that as And so it was like a famous last words kind of a And...   So after trying for about another year, you know, we did acupuncture, which I love. I'm a huge fan of acupuncture, a huge fan of herbs. I think it was really integral on my journey, but there was more blocking me that I had to get through, right? And so after about a year of trying, you know, naturally and using acupuncture, we were advised to do IVF. And when we went to do IVF, I got like a laundry list of physical ailments that...   were in my way, including a lot of stuff that I'm sure from a traditional Chinese medicine perspective, you would say is like inflammation and gut health, right? But at that point in time, I didn't know that. I just knew like, you have elevated natural killer cells, you have endometriosis, you're pre -diabetic, even though I considered myself like very healthy, very healthy eater, exercised, all those things. It was like I didn't have the right quote unquote health for fertility, right? And so,   Michelle (03:01) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:02) We were advised to go straight to IVF and we did two rounds of egg retrievals. retrieved about three embryos in each, but none of them came back genetically normal after we did genetic testing. So I was pretty devastated at that point, as you can imagine, as anyone who's been on this journey can imagine. We'd been trying at that point for about two years and...   Michelle (03:17) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:27) I was really, I'm like gonna cry talking about this, because I don't usually go into the details, you know, but I was just so lost and filled with shame, fear, self -loathing, you know, you name it. And I started realizing that it was like my mind was a part of the problem. And at that point, I actually started working with a coach who helped me see.   Michelle (03:50) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (03:54) how mindset was impacting my perception of my entire situation. And I learned to stop being so obsessed with time and stop feeling like I had to rush, rush, rush and like jump into the next egg retrieval and keep going. Because at that point, I think I was probably like 38 getting close to 39. And if you're in the Western medical world, they're like, the clock is ticking every month is gonna decrease your odds.   Michelle (03:59) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (04:22) And so I was really had to step back from that mentality and really start to own what was my truth, right? And so I started to look at, okay, what are the things that I have not addressed? Because I felt like I had addressed everything, right? But after that second egg retrieval, I stepped back and said, okay, one thing I've never really done is I've never really, you know, changed my diet. I think my diet's healthy, but maybe there's something else I can do. I've...   Michelle (04:22) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (04:51) exercise but I do yoga and Pilates and I was advised to do like more high intensity stuff. So I started shifting you know my diet to what would be considered like a more fertility friendly diet. I started finding the reserves within myself to do things that I didn't feel like I could have done before because my mind was in a place to be willing to go there. You know so for me like it really all started in my mind and then I'm gonna wrap up the story because I know we have a lot more.   to talk about, but I want to share that the linchpin for me was I discovered a physical therapy called Wern and it is like an, yeah, it's an external like massage technique almost, but not relaxing, very intense where they go in and they externally break down the abdominal, the tissues in your abdomen that for me were binding my fallopian tubes. And I'd been advised by my clinic, you don't,   Michelle (05:29) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (05:48) you know, don't do that, it's just a scam, was basically what they said. But in my gut, which...   Michelle (05:50) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Even though it has research, I know exactly which one you're talking about. They have research, actual papers. Yep.   Kathryn Bregman (05:55) Yes, yes, it has published. Thank you. It has published medical research. It, you know, and I just instinctively was like, this feels right for me. This feels like part of what's my issue and I want to do it. And because I've been working on my mindset and I was like really practicing, trusting my gut, I was like, I'm doing it. You know, and I remember saying to my husband when we left our IVF clinic, when the doctor had said like, it's a waste of your money. Meanwhile, it's like, you know, an eighth of the price of IVF.   I said to my husband, I was like, I don't care what he says, we're doing it. And that was like a real stance for me. Like I really, you know, stood for something that up until that point, I had been kind of like acquiescing to the experts, you know, like you tell me what to do, you tell me what to do. And finally, I was finding my voice and doing what I felt I needed to do. And I went and I worked with an amazing woman, Susan Winograd.   Michelle (06:27) Yeah.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (06:49) And she, we did this thing at six days, five days, five days, six hours a day of this physical therapy. And the very next cycle, I was pregnant naturally.   Michelle (07:01) Was that the Wern are you talking about or? Okay.   Kathryn Bregman (07:01) Yeah, so it's called WURN, it's W -U -R -N, and there's another word for it as clear passage, there you go, yeah, yeah.   Michelle (07:09) Clear passage. Yeah, yeah. No, I knew clear passage. so Susan was the lady that worked on you.   Kathryn Bregman (07:15) She was the lady who worked on me, Susan Winograd, and she actually, she works in women's pelvic health. She has a podcast called Pelvicore, and she's an amazing, amazing healer, and she and I worked closely together. It's like, that's it. I was her patient for the week. I went there every day from eight to two or whatever it was, and she did this stuff, and it was very intensive, and it released emotions too. So it wasn't just physical. Yeah, but like -   Michelle (07:18) Okay.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Right, I've heard that.   Kathryn Bregman (07:45) childhood memories came back, like trauma came up and things that had been in my body that were literal physical and emotional blocks to my flourishing pelvic And again, for me, like you could say, if only I had done that three years ago, I could have gotten pregnant so much faster. But the truth is I had to be in the right place in my mind in order to even be willing to go there, to do that thing, to...   Michelle (08:09) Yeah.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (08:14) get into it as deeply as I did. And so for me, and what I find with the women I work with, you know, it all starts in this willingness to start to see things differently and to understand your journey, you know, as an opportunity to like release old trauma, learn ways that your body wants to flourish and be healthy and not see that as a punishment, but a gift,   Michelle (08:26) Right.   happening for you versus happening to you.   Kathryn Bregman (08:41) Exactly, exactly, which is like so antithetical to what anybody wants to like think or feel, you know, when they're going through it. But when you start to make that shift, it's empowering. And that's what it was for me. So I got pregnant naturally. I had my daughter right like three days before I turned 40. And...   Michelle (08:48) Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (09:02) I never went back for my third egg retrieval.   Michelle (09:04) Yeah, that's amazing. That sounds incredible. And I want to go back to when you were going through it, you know, because a lot of people go through the different phases, just like you said, people need to be ready to know that they want like something different. And so when you were in it, when you were like really in it, like knee deep thick, you know, what were the things that you were telling yourself?   Kathryn Bregman (09:23) Yes.   Hmm, good question. I was filled with fear that it would never happen. So I would look at my friends who have kids, none of whom had struggled the way that I was struggling, and think, you know, it's not like literally in words I would say they're better than me, but I felt shame.   Michelle (09:49) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (10:00) Like I felt embarrassed. I felt like I didn't want to share what I was going through. Like for the first time, I couldn't be vulnerable with my friends who, you know, I would say up until that point, I had probably told everything that happened in my life. And I just couldn't share it because it was so, you know, for lack of a better word, like embarrassing. Even though now on the other side of it, you know, I can stand here and be like,   Michelle (10:01) Mm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (10:27) There's nothing to be ashamed of. It's not, you know, it's not embarrassing, but when you're in it as a woman, it's a very different thing than anything I had gone through before.   Michelle (10:32) Mm -hmm.   Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's interesting how we make meaning of it when you're going through it. But even though it's not like based in absolute truth, it's not true. We know that. It still feels true when you're going through it and it still feels like very real.   Kathryn Bregman (10:47) Yeah.   Yeah, and I think about, you know, up until that point, I never realized how much motherhood defines us in our culture as women, you know, and whether we even want to be moms or don't. Just the idea of making that choice, quote unquote, right? Like that in itself is like putting you in a box. Do you have kids or do you not have kids? What does that say about you as a woman? And I think, you know, I felt...   Michelle (11:10) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (11:30) inferior as a woman. Like I was failing my husband, you know, that I was, you know, I even questioned like, would he be better off with someone who, who was fertile, you know, like, and, and we just, and he's, he's like my soulmate partner, you know? So to question oneself on that level just shows like how deep that like,   Michelle (11:46) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (11:58) yearning for children is and how complicated it becomes when we struggle to make that dream come true emotionally, you know, not just physically.   Michelle (12:09) Yeah, I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot from my patients and the people I work with is, you know, that's my one job as a woman, like that kind of like that repeated thought pattern. And, really sad to see, you know, people going through that and really like, and even when they're saying that they're like, I know it's not fully true. I know that that's not the truth that I'm not broken. Like they know that, but they still struggle with feeling that.   Kathryn Bregman (12:14) Yeah.   Yeah.   Right.   Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing that we really work on in the BFP, which is the group program that I run. We look at the thoughts and the feelings and the actions. And when feelings come up, like I feel inferior, right? What are the thoughts that then come into your mind? And how does that affect what you're willing to do or not willing to do in order to become pregnant?   Michelle (12:50) Mm -hmm.   Right. Definitely. And so when you were talking about blocks also in your body or blocks emotionally that were impacting your body, did you ever feel or get to this place where you can actually feel that in your body? I'm sure during the clear passage was probably something that awoke in a lot of it to you, but like, were there times where you literally felt it in your body?   Kathryn Bregman (13:32) felt like when you say that like blocks or like energetic blocks or yeah.   Michelle (13:34) Yes, like blocks, energetic blocks or emotions. Were you ever able to make the connection of how that felt in your body?   Kathryn Bregman (13:43) interesting question. I mean, I think that...   I know, like, I don't know if this exactly answers it, but what's kind of coming to mind for me when you say that is I think about my lifelong relationship with my period. And I know that for most of my life, you know, it was heavy and crampy, and I really kind of resented it. You know, I had a very...   Michelle (13:58) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (14:12) like almost animosity towards my period because it seemed like it would disrupt my life. It would throw me off. You know, I would have always taking like a lot of my doll or whatever to manage it. And, you know, it wasn't until I started trying to become pregnant that I realized that that whole entire that experience is imbalanced, right? And that that wasn't actually necessary. And that, you know, if I'd met someone like you, I could have healed that so much sooner, you know.   Michelle (14:34) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (14:42) And so even though I don't know if that's really a block, but I know that I feel like that resentment towards my period was also rooted in some other feelings about being a woman, about being a woman and being like as a vulnerable, disempowering experience as opposed to a powerful one. So.   Michelle (14:58) Mm -hmm.   Right.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (15:07) Those things that are most vital to our experience of our femininity, our ability to procreate, our ability to embrace our sensuality, our ability to, you know, really express our feminine side and use it as a source of power. For me, I was always like, it was always in my way. You know, it was always like a hindrance as opposed to a powerful tool. Yeah.   Michelle (15:12) Mm -hmm.   Mm, yeah.   That's interesting. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking like it's really, it comes down to our relationship with our body. And it's often something that because it's like anything that's really mindset, I find that it's very hard for people to really wrap their minds around literally. Because it's, it's abstract. And it's something that sort of is in the background and we can't really touch it and feel it. I mean, we can feel it, but   Kathryn Bregman (15:41) Yeah.   Michelle (16:01) It's, it's a little bit more abstract in the sense that we have to concentrate to feel it. Because when we're distracted with outside world, we're not going to really become aware of it until something hits us. And they were like, wait, wait, something's off. And that's, I always say that that's your higher intelligence speaking with you. So like symptoms, things that come up, difficulties in life. any kind of resistance really where life resists you or you feel resistance towards life.   And of course it's like every action has the opposite reaction. So you feel like life is doing that to you. And sometimes it's a reflection of, of some kind of inner turmoil that's happening. And so it's kind of like a diagnosis of sorts, you know, obviously this isn't a technical diagnosis. I just want to get a throw. I'm not saying this literally, but like in a sense of, just really coming in and tuning in, like what is happening? Is there disharmony happening within me, within my life?   Kathryn Bregman (16:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Again.   Right. Yeah.   Michelle (16:59) And that is the great intelligence. And it's actually such an amazing aspect of our life, like our body's symptom, all of those things. It really shows us so much about our inner terrain.   Kathryn Bregman (17:03) Exactly.   It really does. And I think that, you know, reproduction is one of the most amazing, like, synthesises of the mind and the body. You know, like, it's not like if you have a broken arm, you know, there's like a very obvious problem. But when you're talking about something like fertility, you know, what I found in my experience, and I'm sure you've seen this and I see it with the women I work with, it's like,   Michelle (17:29) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (17:46) It's so multi -layered, you know? And for every woman, it's going to have, yeah, like these different components to it based on her own experiences, her own physicality, her own history in every part of herself, her emotional, her physical, her spiritual being, you know? And I think that until I was able to step back and really, like,   Michelle (17:49) yeah, big time.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (18:15) embrace all of that until I could see it as not just a physical ailment, but as a more like complex representation of me and not be intimidated by that, but like energized by it. You know, then I was able to really like make headway in my journey. And that's what I've seen with so many of the women I work with is like, once you can start to see this as not a punishment, you know, like we're saying, or,   Michelle (18:25) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (18:44) a problem to be fixed, but rather like you said, symptoms that are showing us what's happening within us and how we can take action to heal ourselves.   Michelle (18:56) Mm -hmm.   It's interesting because there's so much choice in that. And sometimes we don't feel like we have a choice when we're in these really difficult things, we're like, well, you know, look what's happening. And we feel like we don't have a choice, which is a natural, it's, it's, it's all a progression. But then sometimes when you do actually realize and become aware of your own relationship with what's happening.   Kathryn Bregman (19:02) Yeah.   Michelle (19:26) It feels at first like you're admitting defeat.   Kathryn Bregman (19:29) Yeah.   Michelle (19:30) but it could be the single most powerful empowering thing you can do.   Kathryn Bregman (19:35) Exactly, exactly. It's so true. It's so true. And I love that you said that. Like it feels like you're admitting defeat, but it's actually the most empowering thing you can do. And I think that if you just stop at the defeat part, you are defeated, right? But if you can see beyond that and be like, wait, there's so much that's actually there to support my shift.   Michelle (19:54) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (20:04) then like a whole new world can open up and you know, your fertility can just become boundless.   Michelle (20:12) Yes. Yeah. I have one specific patient in mind and she has insulin resistance and wants to work on the baby and got a negative pregnancy test. So she was really upset. And so, and it was early on in our working together. And I'm thinking, you know, I wanted to shift sort of the perspective that,   You got to take care of yourself. You got to take care of your body. You got to work on that. Like, yes, baby is a beautiful thing and that's what we want, of course, but it's really about you and taking care of yourself and nourishing yourself and that extra added stress of demanding something from your body when your body is like screaming out for help. You know, so it's kind of like re -shifting. Let's take it one step at a time and like,   Kathryn Bregman (20:45) Yes. Yes.   Michelle (20:59) really bring it back to the nurturing that your body's thirsting for. Sometimes it's a little shift in perspective that at first feels like, this isn't exactly what I came for. I came for this, but ultimately it's that shift in perspective that our bodies are trying to communicate with us.   Kathryn Bregman (21:21) That's so true, it's so true. And I think that that's where, you know, when we can release our like death grip on time, because so often, it doesn't even matter the age. Like I've worked with women who were 28 who were worried about the clock. And I've worked with women who are 43 who are worried about the clock, you know? So it's like, it doesn't even matter what age you are, somehow in our minds we're like, it has to happen, you know, or it's never gonna happen. And that fear is actually, you know,   Michelle (21:29) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   It's a state of mind. Yes. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (21:51) creating more stress and contributing to perpetuating that state of imbalance, you know, whatever the state of imbalance is within one's body. So I think that, you know, you're right when you're saying like it's about nurturing yourself and supporting whatever is, you know, not functioning optimally because then you're going to get to that place where you can really bring in a baby.   Michelle (21:53) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (22:18) And that's a mental and physical shift that has to happen because you have to be willing, you know, mentally, emotionally to, and I don't like, whenever I say let go, I feel like people misinterpret that as saying like, don't do anything. Yeah, and it's not, like it's such a.   Michelle (22:18) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   or don't care. Yeah, right. I totally understand what you're saying.   Kathryn Bregman (22:40) Yeah, it's like that nuanced understanding, like letting go doesn't even mean no longer trying. It just means like, it's so hard to put in. Yeah, yeah.   Michelle (22:43) Yes.   Right. Finding flow, it's finding flow. So it's interesting because like, you know, you're on the right path when it feels a little more effortless. And I know it sounds and I think it's the belief that gets in the way, our belief and our conditioning that we cannot get to something that we really want unless we work hard.   Kathryn Bregman (22:59) Yes!   Yes, yes, exactly.   Michelle (23:11) And that's just a conditioning view. If you recognize that that is just how you've been conditioned to believe, then it's like all of a sudden, my God, I don't have to suffer. And actually, the more peace and the more good you feel, you know you're on the right path.   Kathryn Bregman (23:18) Yeah.   Yeah, exactly. That is exactly, exactly it. And that conditioning is so interesting because I think, you know, kind of like going back to what we were saying earlier, we have these thoughts and beliefs that we don't really realize we have internalized and that drive a lot of our thinking and decision making. And they really become obvious, I think, on the fertility journey, if you're trying for something and it's not happening. So.   Michelle (23:30) Yeah.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (23:56) that idea that like we have to suffer in order to get what we want is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that we don't even realize we're doing it. You know, like we just think that.   Michelle (24:01) Yeah.   Right. We don't even realize it's not true. Like we don't even question it.   Kathryn Bregman (24:12) Exactly. Exactly. And if you can't question it or see it, you have no ability to separate from it and step out of it. You know, right. Yeah. So that's I know. I know. I know. And it never ends like, you know, you just it's just like this lifelong practice, you know, and that's also why I think of the fertility journey as a gift, because.   Michelle (24:23) 100%. Yeah. It's pretty wild.   Right. It never ends.   Kathryn Bregman (24:40) it really brings home these principles that are true in so many aspects of our lives and gives you this opportunity to learn them and then use them when you become a mom, and use them going forward. So I think everyone I know who's gone through this and then come out on the other side is always grateful for it. And as much as that's a hard thing to see at the time, I...   Michelle (24:51) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   It is. Yeah. And it's interesting because you hear people like the sort of the argument against it. Well, I didn't ask to like better myself right now. I didn't ask to be put into this situation. And I get that. however, it doesn't necessarily have to do just with a fertility journey. This is the human condition. This is life. And you know what, when we don't bring that awareness, it's going to creep up other places. It just, that's the way it is. It's the nature. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (25:15) Right.   Yes. Yes.   Exactly, exactly, exactly. We don't choose our challenges, you know, but we choose how we handle them. We choose how we go through them. We choose how we live through them. And that's can be a very empowering thing.   Michelle (25:39) Yeah.   Yeah, it can be for sure. And of course, again, like, you know, there's no perfect way to do this either. And I kind of want to throw that out there. Like there's no perfect way. It's just really connecting with yourself. Your higher wisdom is actually customized specifically for you, perfectly for you. And that's what it is, is that there's no perfect standard, but it's your perfect standard, like whatever it is that works for you, that aligns with you. And   Kathryn Bregman (25:57) Yes.   Michelle (26:17) you know, connects with your nature.   Kathryn Bregman (26:19) Absolutely, absolutely. I love hearing you say that. You know, just it resonates for me so much and I love our conversation. I feel like every time I talk to you, I just learn more and it's so grounding. There's something about your presence is just very like soothing. So I think, yeah.   Michelle (26:37) thank you. Well, I love, I love your input too, because I feel like we're definitely on the same track. And it's just really interesting because, again, it's something that is so, it seems to be kind of behind the scenes. So when you were going through this and you finally said, okay, let me get into my body and like really acknowledge how my mind is working, the thoughts that I'm thinking.   Kathryn Bregman (26:52) Mm.   Michelle (27:04) How did you get started? Because I know that when you're in it and you're really in the thick of the emotion, it can be very overwhelming. How do you get to the place where you separate from what you've identified with for so long?   Kathryn Bregman (27:17) It's a good question. I really, it was a process and I started by really just bringing in more forms of support. So like I had said earlier, I started with acupuncture and herbs and then I moved on and at a certain point I was like, I need to go to therapy. I need to.   Michelle (27:41) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (27:44) Like I started realizing that there were things that had happened in my childhood that could be blocking me. For example, my father passed away when I was two. And yeah, and my whole life I was like, you know, I sort of told the narrative of like, you were too young to be affected by it, right? And so I grew up with this belief, like I was too young to be affected by it. But what I realized was that,   Michelle (27:51) Mm -hmm.   wow.   Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (28:11) it was playing a role in my fear of conceiving. There was something there about birth and death that was scary to me, and I needed to unpack that. And so going to therapy and looking at just the various relationships in my life and becoming more aware of my physical body too. I went to a somatic therapist and we would do stuff like...   Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm.   Mm.   Kathryn Bregman (28:38) you know, this emotion is coming up, where do you feel it inside? And becoming more aware of the signals that my internal self was giving me about how I actually felt about things rather than like the stories I was always telling in my mind, you know, that maybe weren't even true. So really finding more ways to connect with my truth and, you know, seeking out other forms of support. I mean, I was like for sure.   Michelle (28:54) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (29:06) addicted to Dr. Google, you know, like I was constantly like researching whatever I could. And I think that absolutely there were times when that was unhelpful, like Googling, you know, signs of implantation, like 10 times a day for two weeks before my period, every month, knowing that I'd read the same thing over and over again, and knowing that like, I knew it all and I didn't need to do it, but versus...   Michelle (29:08) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (29:33) Googling in a way that was really helpful where I found clear passage, you know and knew instinctively like this is for me, you know, so I feel it Yeah, I feel it and then because I was doing the therapy and I was listening to podcasts and I worked with a coach I actually did therapy and coaching because they're different, you know, like one was about my past and the other was about How do you want to live right now? Who do you want to be going forward?   Michelle (29:39) Mm -hmm, right. Yeah, you feel it.   Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (30:01) So, and even as I say this, I'm like, people must be like, this woman is out of her mind. Like, how did she do? Why did she do all these things, you know? But at the end of the day, you've got to. Yes, thank you. You know, because I think that we have to take this opportunity of struggling to conceive and treat it like the opportunity that it is and that it can be and leverage those resources, bring on.   Michelle (30:02) Yes.   sure everybody's relating though. I feel like everybody's relating to this. Yeah.   Kathryn Bregman (30:31) board, the experts who know how to help you uncover the blocks, whether they are emotional, rooted in your past, in your body, all of those things combined because really at the end of the day, more and more, I think we find they're all connected. But needing to look at the different entry points to uprooting the blocks, which is going to be different for each person.   So really like doing all of those things in combination with each other over time. And one thing I will say too, about like four or five months before I conceived, my husband and I went to a five days silent meditation retreat, which, my gosh, yeah, I recommend it for everyone. I would love to do it again someday.   Michelle (31:20) I want to do that so bad.   My husband wouldn't survive though, because he talks so much.   Kathryn Bregman (31:31) It's like a strange experience as a couple because like you kind of want to communicate but you can't talk, you know, so it's like it's a strange dynamic but it was so good and so powerful and it set the tone for me to start doing like a mindfulness meditation practice every morning for just five minutes and I really found that that five minutes and then over time, you know, my practice has evolved but just that five minutes.   Michelle (31:49) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (31:58) is like the foundation for me of finding that connection to my inner self, setting myself up for the day to respond to that inner voice, to hear it and to trust it. And that was transformational. You know, it gave me like a good foundation in that experience to then carry it on in this small but consistent way.   Michelle (32:03) Hmm.   Right.   Kathryn Bregman (32:25) that I think really, I know has had a deep impact then and continues to now.   Michelle (32:30) I love that you mentioned that because I happen to be a huge fan of meditation and mindfulness. It is the key. And you know what I love about what you just said? It was only five minutes a day. It's just give yourself, even if five minutes a day, like put it this way, when you charge your phone, even five minutes is going to juice it up and you're going to get something right. And it's kind of like downloading that software from cosmic.   Kathryn Bregman (32:35) Yeah. Yes, it's like the key, you know, it really is.   Yes! Yes! Yes!   Michelle (32:59) intelligence. And that's how I see it. It's just giving your mind, body, and soul an opportunity to download that intelligence.   Kathryn Bregman (33:09) Absolutely. I agree 100%. I know that it's true in my own experience. And you know, when I was...   Michelle (33:15) Most people are the people that I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say this. The only people that will totally understand what I'm saying are the people who have practiced.   Kathryn Bregman (33:25) Yeah, it's true because once you do it, it is one of those things that like you have to experience it to know. And it's not like some big secret, anyone can do it, you know? And it's really just about sitting down and I do this, you know, again with the women in the BFP because I'm like, this is what's going to help us step away from that inner chatter and all the negative voices that are telling you.   Michelle (33:48) Mm -hmm.   Kathryn Bregman (33:50) you waited too long, it's never gonna happen. It can happen for other people, but not for you. Whatever those voices are, this is the tool to learn that they're not you. That there's some other part of you that is more authentic, that's connected to your real truth, which is that you know in your heart, you are meant to be a mom. And that that baby is calling you. And that's why you're even.   Michelle (33:55) Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Kathryn Bregman (34:17) going through all this stuff to begin with because it's meant for you. But all of those voices in your head are gonna take over unless you learn to connect and listen to the softer, more still voice within. And I'll just say too, I think that that five minutes a day is so key because we often make it really complicated and like, well, how, I can't do that, other people can do that, yeah, or.   Michelle (34:21) Right.   All or nothing.   Kathryn Bregman (34:45) Well, my voice was going the whole time, so what was the point? But, you know, I always tell people, like, if your voice is going the whole time that you're breathing mindfully and you became aware of the fact that your voice was going the whole time, you just separated yourself from that voice. Like, that is the point. The point is to see it.   Michelle (35:00) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Right, right. It's not to stop the thoughts, but it's to watch it, to become aware.   Kathryn Bregman (35:09) Right. Yeah. Yes, to become aware of it. And I studied my coaching, my coaching background. I trained with Marianne Williamson and she, she's amazing. And that was a life -changing experience. And I really take to heart. She always said five minutes a day, five minutes a day is all you need. You know, so I'm like, okay, I can say it with confidence because that's what I've been taught, you know, and I know from myself, it's true.   Michelle (35:21) It's so awesome. Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Yep. Yeah. yeah. And I actually sometimes I'll even say start with two minutes a day. Because if you repeat that, if you repeat that in the beginning, then you're like, OK, your mind accepts the fact that this is part of your practice. And then naturally, you're going to want to extend it. You're going to be like, OK, this is too little. Let me just do a little more. And then you'll you'll find that you're you know, you're almost like, you know how they say, like, if you don't drink a lot of water, you sort of suppress that thirst.   Kathryn Bregman (35:43) Yeah. Yup.   Yes. Yeah.   Michelle (36:06) And then you don't feel thirsty anymore. And then the more you start drinking water, the more you awaken that thirst. It's the same thing with meditation. And meditation is for everybody. We are wired to do it just like we are all wired to sleep. We are all wired to pee and poop and eat. And, you know, it's like part of, it's just part of what resonates and works with us as humans.   Kathryn Bregman (36:12) Yes. Love.   Yep, absolutely, absolutely.   Michelle (36:32) And so what words of wisdom or tips would you give people who really are finding themselves lost? And we've all been there. We've all been there with different things and different times of our life where we get so sucked into how we're feeling and the emotions can be so hard to remove yourself from. So if somebody's really going through it right now or just like coming back from the doctor and getting bad news and really getting in their heads, what advice would you give them?   Kathryn Bregman (37:01) That's a good question. I would say that...   If you look to examples of women who have defied statistics, beaten the odds that they were given, who've become pregnant despite their struggles, know that they are not any different from you. You have the same capacity within yourself to bring home your baby.   And if you trust the inner wisdom within you, which may sound elusive or confusing, but take it in small steps, one baby step at a time, you will get there. You absolutely, 100 % will get there.   Michelle (37:49) Amazing. Those are powerful words, Catherine. So for people who would like to work with you, like what do you offer and how can they reach you?   Kathryn Bregman (37:59) Yeah, absolutely. The best way to reach out to me is actually to find me on Instagram at Badass Fertility. It's my handle, so. Badass Fertility, thank you. And you can always DM me directly. I'm on there all the time and love to go back and forth. I have a podcast, the Badass Fertility podcast. So if you like listening today, that's a great way to hear me weekly. And then I run group programs for women who.   Michelle (38:08) I love that.   Kathryn Bregman (38:28) who can come together. And a lot of the tools that I'm talking about here, we use in a variety of contexts. And I also work with women one -on -one. So if you are interested in either of those options, you can always reach out to me on Instagram for information or go to my website, badassfertility .com.   Michelle (38:48) Awesome. And I will have all of these links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find Catherine, I love talking to you. I felt like that the first time we talked, you're you are a badass woman, a badass coach, and I'm so happy we connected. Thank you so much for coming on today.   Kathryn Bregman (39:05) Me too. Thank you so much. I love all the work that you do. I just, I love your book, by the way. Amazing, amazing book. It's such a gift to the world. So thank you. It's an honor to be here today.   Michelle (39:12) thank you.