In today's episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Mike Berkley shares his personal journey with acupuncture and herbal medicine in fertility treatment. He highlights the value of integrative medicine in fertility enhancement. Mike explains how acupuncture and herbal medicine improve fertility by increasing blood flow to the ovaries and testes, enhancing egg and sperm quality. He also discusses the importance of preparing for IVF and the timing of treatment.    Mike Berkley, LAc, FABORM, is a licensed and board-certified acupuncturist and a board-certified herbalist. He is a fertility specialist at The Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness in the Midtown East neighborhood of Manhattan, New York. Infertility can be a daunting journey for couples longing to start a family, which is a reality Mike faced with his wife. Luckily, she sought the guidance of an acupuncturist and herbalist who possessed some knowledge of reproductive issues. Despite initial disappointments, after undergoing acupuncture and herbal medicine treatments for seven months, the couple became pregnant and carried the child to term without any complications. Their once seemingly elusive dream had become a beautiful reality thanks to the remarkable effects of acupuncture and herbal medicine. This experience led Mike to obtain his degree in acupuncture from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine's New York campus and his National Board Certification in herbal medicine. Equipped with the necessary license and fueled by an insatiable thirst for knowledge, Mike studied Western medical approaches and the ancient wisdom of Chinese medicine about infertility treatment. Through rigorous study and invaluable clinical experience, he developed unique acupuncture protocols and proprietary herbal formulas, tailoring them to each individual or couple seeking his assistance. Mike is also a member of several organizations, including the Acupuncture Society of New York and the American Infertility Association. He is writing a book on reproductive disorders and Chinese medicine and hosts his groundbreaking seminars nationwide. Mike has witnessed firsthand the life-changing potential these ancient practices hold for couples struggling with infertility. Together, he can help transform your dreams into reality and create a world where the joy of parenthood knows no bounds.   Website: www.berkleycenter.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeberkley56/   For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.    The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/         Transcript:   Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Personal Journey 00:30 Discovering Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine 05:16 The Limitations of Western Reproductive Medicine 06:33 The Value of Integrative Medicine in Fertility Treatment 08:59 How Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine Improve Fertility 20:16 Living in Accordance with Nature and the Impact on Fertility 26:11 The Mind-Body Connection and the Importance of Mental and Emotional Health 28:48 The Impact of Acupuncture on Blood Flow 32:35 The Heart and Uterus Connection 33:49 Contact Information     Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Mike. Yeah, I'm actually really happy to have you. And mike berkley (00:02) I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:07) read about your story and I find it fascinating that you guys started out as patients, kind of like how I was. I was working in New York, really close to you, for doing architecture. So completely different life, completely different world. So I went in for my menstrual irregularities and then everything started getting resolved.   for the first time with acupuncture. And I know you guys were also moved by it with your own journey. So I'd love for you to share your story and how you got into this type of work.   Mike berkley (00:39) Sure, I'd be happy to. So, while I was in acupuncture school, my wife and I were trying to have a baby. And we couldn't. And I had, she had anti -sperm antibodies and I had, I don't remember, motility issues or morphology issues or something. And she went to a...   She didn't go to a reproductive endocrinologist. She went to a gynecologist and he wanted to do some IUIs. And then she met or heard about an acupuncturist and herbalist in New York. And she went to this one.   And the woman gave her herbs and acupuncture and gave me some   then two months later, I was I think I was working and going to school. I can't remember so long ago, but she called me. My wife called me and said that she was pregnant and I didn't know anything about medicine in any way, shape or form. And I said, how do you know?   And she said, well, I peed on the stick. And I said, well, that's all well and good, but I don't believe in that. You better go to the doctor and get a blood test. And she did. And now I have a 29 year old son. Yeah. So I got very inspired at that time to pursue knowledge in the realm of reproductive medicine.   Michelle (02:03) amazing.   Mike berkley (02:17) And so I spent many years studying Western reproductive medicine. I don't mean officially, I didn't go to medical school, but on my own, I studied a lot of Western reproductive medicine and a lot of acupuncture and a lot of herbs. And I've been treating fertility cases exclusively. Like I won't treat a neck or a back or a headache. I've been treating fertility cases exclusively for 27 years.   Michelle (02:29) Yeah. Amazing.   So that's awesome. I mean, I personally love working with fertility. I first started, it was more general, but I just love it. And the rewards are like insane. You know, when you get the positive pregnancy pictures sent to you and it's really incredible and people are shocked. Oftentimes, because they're like, there's no way. I mean, sometimes five years of nothing like Western medicine. And I think one of the common things is that people think that IVF is a guarantee. Do you find that?   Mike berkley (03:17) Of course, of course. I mean, it's, you know, our lives as acupuncturists and herbalists are very interesting, gratifying and ungratifying. I'll give you an example. This has happened to you. It's happened to any acupuncturist listening. Patient does four failed IUIs and three failed IVFs.   Michelle (03:18) Yeah.   Right. Right, or it helped me relax through the process.   Mike berkley (03:43) And then you work with the patient for three months and she does an IVF and she gets pregnant and has a baby. And then I've had patients more than one say, well, you know, it's possible that that what you did helped me. And I'm like, yeah, it's possible, you know.   Exactly, exactly. I love that one. You know, it helped me relax. So I think that I'm I think more and more individuals more more couples more women more men are becoming aware of the the efficacy and the value of You know complementary medicine or integrated medicine acupuncture herbs You know diet In the context of fertility enhancement   Michelle (04:16) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (04:34) And I often say to patients, I say, listen, you can go to the best reproductive endocrinologist in the world. I don't care who it is, but that person cannot improve your egg quality. They cannot improve your lining quality and they cannot rectify your husband's sperm DNA fragmentation. I can. So therefore,   Michelle (04:37) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Mike berkley (05:03) We should work as a team. And I'm saying this to the patient, but I'm also saying it to society. And I'm saying it to reproductive endocrinologist. The best type of medicine is integrative medicine. You can do something I can't. I can do something you can't. Let's do this. Let's try again.   Michelle (05:05) Right, 100%. Everybody has their blind spots, you know, and their strengths. I mean, we don't have the technology, we can't go in there and extract eggs. Right.   Mike berkley (05:32) That's right, but who cares? You know, a good car mechanic can fix an engine, but it doesn't mean he can make an engine. So it doesn't matter that we don't have the technology. It doesn't matter that we're not reproductive endocrinologists. What matters is, is that for an IVF to work, you need four things. You need a good egg, a good sperm.   Michelle (05:36) Right.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Mike berkley (06:00) And so the reproductive endocrinologist cannot offer a patient good eggs and good sperm and good line. In fact, there are patients that come to me and they say they have a five millimeter lining and the doctor will give them either transvaginal Viagra or something called Trentol and Neupogen. And these medications will thicken the lining and they still have implantation failure. Why? because a thick lining or within normal limits lining, a 10 millimeter lining doesn't convey that it's a good lining.   Michelle (06:31) Definitely. And of course I've asked this question a lot. I love asking questions that I can answer them too, but obviously every acupuncturist says it in a different way. So,   Mike berkley (06:38) So I think that as acupuncturists and herbalists, we have a lot to offer a patient suffering with infertility for sure.   Michelle (07:00) I'd love for you to talk about how acupuncture and herbals can help somebody who's trying to conceive.   Mike berkley (07:08) Sure. So I'm gonna kinda speak around a little bit, but it'll all make sense in the end. So blood is nothing other than a taxicab. Blood is nothing other than a messenger service. When we inhale, the oxygen gets into the blood and the body is oxygenated through blood flow.   When we eat food, our nutrient products get into the bloodstream and nutrients are disseminated through the blood. FSH and LH coming from the pituitary get to the ovaries via the blood. And so I'm gonna step back for a second and say what I say to patients.   You have a heart that's beating. It's disseminating blood throughout your body. But there are two things that are happening. Number one, that dissemination of blood is generalized. And number two, you're 40 years old. And your blood flow is not as good as it was when you were 20. And if you're not 40, you're 37 or you're 36. Same case. Your blood flow is not as good generally as it was when you were running around in the playground at nine years old. You exercise less, you do less in general, I'm speaking.   And so now to acupuncture, what acupuncture does is it improves and elevates hemodynamics, which means blood flow. And when a patient says, well, my heart is doing that, though that's true, with the utilization of acupuncture, you're improving hemodynamics to a specific area, which is the ovaries.   Michelle (08:57) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (08:58) Blood, therefore, is you're increasing the delivery of oxygen, electrolytes, nutrients, and hormones to the ovarian milieu. Not only that, but you know when a taxi cab takes a passenger to the airport and the passenger gets out, the taxi cab doesn't want to drive back to the city empty. They want to take a passenger back to the city.   It's a 45 minute trip from JFK to New York City to Manhattan. So they don't want to go back without a passenger. Well, blood is the same thing. So when you're increasing blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering these essential products, but the blood is also picking up debris. What is debris? Debris are dead cells. Now, of course, during this conversation, both of us have lost a billion cells. They've died and they've regenerated. But what happens to the cells that die? Well, they get emitted through the sweating, exhalation, urination, defecation. This is how we get rid of toxins in the body. But again, because our digestive functions are not necessarily great, because our hemodynamics are not necessarily what they could be, by stimulating blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering the good and helping to take back the bad which is the dead cells. So you're actually taking this garden that's not getting a lot of rain and it's not getting a lot of sunshine because the trees are like this over the garden. So when you're doing acupuncture herbs, you're cutting down the tops of these trees and you're going like this. So the garden is now getting all this sunshine and the rain is able to hit the flowers. And in a month, the flowers are joyous, beautiful, smiling, looking at everybody and winking at them and saying, hey, I'm a beautiful rose, look at me.   And so that's kind of, I think that the analogy or the metaphor is to how acupuncture improves egg quality. And the same is true with sperm quality. You're causing improved and increased hemodynamics to the testes and the same thing happens as with the ovaries. So it's the testes and the ovaries are really homologues. They both do the same thing. One creates eggs, one creates sperm and...   Michelle (11:09) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (11:23) …stimulating blood there, we're improving the quality of the contents. Now let's talk about herbal medicine. So herbal medicine is much more sophisticated, in my humble opinion, than acupuncture. Acupuncture is very sophisticated and very effective in all areas, whether you have pain or infertility. But the thing about herbal medicine is that you can construct an herbal formula that specifically deals...with the overall presentation of the patient, in my opinion, in a more powerful, efficacious manner. So for example, if you have a patient with polycystic ovarian syndrome who's five foot five and weighs 250 pounds and she's 40 years old, and then you have a PCOS patient who's five foot five and she's 29 years old and she's 110 pounds, they're both suffering with...   Michelle (11:56) you   Mike berkley (12:23) lack of proper menstruation, they're both suffering with infertility. So when you use herbal medicine on those patients, you're not just treating PCOS, treating this woman who's 250 pounds, this woman who's 120 pounds, this woman who's 40 years old, this woman who's 29 years old. So the herbs are very pinpoint accurate in what they do and how they work. And...   The beauty of herbal medicine is that one can create a very specific formula for this patient. So this patient is suffering with infertility, but she also has constipation and chronic headaches and...   Michelle (12:56) you   Mike berkley (13:05) She's got low back pain. So you can give her herbs to deal with all of that stuff. And so acupuncture is efficacious in the same manner. So really, what's the difference? So there's a couple of differences. As I said earlier, in the perspective of herbal medicine, you're taking it orally. It's internal medicine. It's having an effect on the organs, on the follicles.   Michelle (13:16) you   Mike berkley (13:34) the ovaries, on the testes, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm going to say something that's even more interesting. Let's say that you or I had a really bad headache. And we said to our partners, honey, I have a splitting headache. Could you please massage my shoulders and massage my head? It would really make me feel better. And our partners say, of course, of course. And they stand. I'm sitting in this chair and my wife comes.   Michelle (13:46) you   Mike berkley (14:03) me and starts to massage me and she's massaging my head and maybe in a half an hour I feel better. Let's retell that story. The same exact scenario except before my wife starts to work on me I take three Advil. Now what happens is instead of my headache dissipating in 30 minutes it dissipates in 15 minutes. Why?   Michelle (14:22) you   Mike berkley (14:32) because I'm being treated from the outside in, which is the massage, and I'm also being treated from the inside out, which is a three Advil. And so when you use these together, you're increasing the efficacy of the treatment. And so I think using acupuncture nerves together, they do similar things, but they also do different things, and they certainly potentiate each other's efficacy and power.   Michelle (15:00) Yeah, for it's very complimentary. Now, typically somebody comes to you and says, I'm starting IVF in a month. Sometimes I'm like, okay, I kind of wish you came here a couple of months before. So for people who are listening, if they want to prepare for IVF or really just prepare their body and their egg quality, how early...   should they come to you? Like how long does it take really for everything to take effect?   Mike berkley (15:30) So it's a great question. So again, I'm going to talk about sperm and egg. Again, the similarity is quite fascinating. It takes three months for a spermatogonia, an immature sperm, to reach a mature sperm. And it takes three months for a primordial follicle, which is...speck of dust to turn into a 20 millimeter follicle. It is the 20 millimeter follicle that the egg is retrieved from. So three months before a transfer is the, you know, is the gold standard. It's the best thing to do. But what I will say to patients, because I get this kind of situation all the time, is listen, you're having a cycle, you're having a transfer next month. That's okay. Let's start tomorrow.   Yeah, but you just told me it takes three months. No, no, no, no, I understand. But let's start tomorrow. I'm going to tell you why. If you do the transfer and it works, you've thrown out a couple of hundred dollars on some sessions. So what? I'm going to continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks to help prevent miscarriage. Why for 13 weeks? Because 90 % of miscarriages occur viable for the 12th week. In the event, in the most unfortunate event,   Michelle (16:29) you   Mike berkley (16:52) that the cycle fails. We've already started treating you now. So then in the subsequent cycle or the cycle subsequent to that, you'll have much better egg quality. You know, I don't know if you know Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett is one of the greatest investors in the history of America. And somebody said to him one time, Mr. Buffett, when is the best time to invest in the stock market? And he said, today.   And the point of the story is you can't really time the market. Invest if it's high, invest if it's low, dollar cost average. Invest 100 bucks every month for the rest of your life and you'll be okay. And so that's kind of like this. Invest in the treatment even though your transfer isn't a month. Doesn't work out? Okay, we've still improved follicular quality. Does work out? It's all good. I'm gonna continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks. You're gonna have a baby.   Michelle (17:47) Yeah. That's a good perspective for sure. yeah, I mean, what are some of the things that you see? Cause cause I feel like the way we're living right now is impacting our bodies in so many ways. And Chinese medicine, really the heart of it is living in accordance with nature, living in accordance with our own nature. And what happens is when we live outside of that and against our normal flow, that's when we start to get patterns and symptoms. So living in New York, I remember having a lot of really kind of like climbing an uphill battle because it is go, go, go. And so some of the things that I tell people who are not close to here, wanted to get coaching calls is even getting a grounding matter somehow finding ways to living in more flow. And what are some of the things that you see?   Mike berkley (18:43) So I think everything that you just said is true, real and valid. However, I'd like to say that unfortunately, and remember, this is to the listening audience. This is my opinion only. I do feel it's next to impossible to get to one's nature. I do think it's next to impossible to be really settled, really like, able to exhale. Why do I say this? I say this because the world is at war, because there is intense poverty, there's joblessness, there's crime, there's all kinds of negative things. Of course there's many beautiful things, but there's many negative things. And so how can people possibly exhale?   So it's very difficult to become kind of, you know, one with nature and one with yourself and this kind of thing. I do think, however, that even though it's difficult to achieve, that the achieving is not the goal. The trying is the goal. The journey is the goal. One will probably never reach the destination, but it's okay because through the journey one's psychic and mental and emotional and physical health can improve. So even though I don't see a path to ultimate improvement, I don't see a path to ultimate health, I do think that there is a mind -body connection for sure. It's completely unassailable. And I think that people, I don't really get involved with this kind of thing too much in my own practice. I'm very, very clinical, but that doesn't mean that I don't totally embrace what you're saying. I think people should do yoga. I think they should meditate. Listen, I'll tell you an example of exactly, I'll put a patient in the room and I'll come to take the patient out and she's laying on the table with the cell phone.   You know, this is terribly destructive to the patient and he or she doesn't understand that. And I'll say to them, listen, you have 30 minutes of your entire life that you cannot be bothered by anybody. You can just be free. You're in this room on this table with beautiful music and it's a lovely room and you're taken care of here.   Michelle (20:53) yeah.   Mike berkley (21:22) put the phone down, man, and B, and it's really hard because people need that constant stimulation. I need it. The first thing I do when I wake up is I check my phone at 6 .15 in the morning. You know, it's mental illness. It's mental illness. It's craziness. But I do think that trying to be at peace is very important, not only for fertility,   Michelle (21:26) Yeah.   It's an addiction for sure. Yeah.   Mike berkley (21:49) but for life, for happiness, for joy. And so, as I say, I don't have meditation classes here or yoga classes here, but I strongly recommend that patients do engage in those activities. And I also think people should go to the gym. I think people should work out three days a week.   Michelle (22:09) yeah.   Mike berkley (22:10) and work out pretty hard. I don't mean hard like a professional athlete, but you know, don't get on the treadmill for five minutes. Like work. You know, listen, we have this thing called liver -chi stagnation, right? It means that, you know, the chi is stuck and people are stuck. And as a result of being stuck, inflammation occurs and they're angry and they get headaches and they're bitter. Guess what happens to the stuck chi when you move, when you exercise, the chi becomes unstuck and the   Michelle (22:37) Right, yeah.   Mike berkley (22:39) Exercise makes you feel better psycho -emotionally and when you feel better psycho -emotionally, you'll be better off physically   Michelle (22:47) 100%. I remember, so when I was in New York in the craziness just over firm, you know, that's the only way you can really survive there. You have to like show that you're a good quality employee. And I remember I found Acupuncture and what I found that it gave me is this flow.   in my life where I was able to still withstand and have that pressure, but I felt more resilient. It like, it increased my ability to adapt more than anything else has. And that was one of the things that I was so amazed by. But then it really made me realize whole beings that have so many different aspects to ourselves and how one...   part, if we work on our own energetic frequency and chi, it impacts our life and it impacts our how we can think and how we feel.   Mike berkley (23:47) I agree with you. You know, another problem that I see quite frequently is, you know, there were two kinds of patients. There are patients that are very self -aware, and they exercise and they meditate and they do yoga and they eat properly.   And then there are patients that they may not be overweight, but they don't eat well. You know, they drink Coca -Cola and they eat French fries and listen, guess what? There's nothing wrong with drinking a Coca -Cola and having French fries, you know, once every two months, once a month. It's all good. Chinese medicine is about yin and yang. What does yin and yang mean? Balance. It's all good. But when you have French fries and burger and ice cream tonight, you smoke a joint tomorrow and you, you know, you don't go to the gym for three days. You know, this just...   Michelle (24:07) Mm -hmm.   Mike berkley (24:36) it's just going to have negative attributes. It's going to create negative outcomes, certainly physically. So I try to encourage patients to eat properly and I try to give them some type of helpful diet plan if I think they need it. But I think nutrition and diet are very important for health in general. And certainly in the world of infertility, many of the   Many of the causative factors can really be, I don't want to get too technical, but they can kind of originate with what's called free radicals, reactive oxidative species, and these things cause inflammation in the body. And if you have inflammation in the uterus or inflammation in the testes, inflammation in the testes kills sperm. Inflammation in the uterus is going to kill an embryo. So we need to be careful about what we're eating from the inflammatory point of view.   You know, the inflammation point.   Michelle (25:37) Right. Yeah. Gut health is everything. interesting how the spleen and stomach are center. That's their location. The direction is center because, and it really is, it's such a symbol of how important it is in creating blood. And actually speaking of blood flow that you were talking about before, did you ever see, there was something on Instagram, somebody took a sample of blood before and after acupuncture.   it was shocking. Like you could see it literally move everything that you learn in textbook about how it improves chi and flow. You could see the blood cells being a little bit more stuck together from the before. They're a little more stuck together and very slow moving. The after the blood cells not only are not stuck together, but they're more round.   Mike berkley (26:30) Interesting.   Michelle (26:30) They're more round and they're moving fast and flowing. They're not right next to each other. It's crazy. And that was mind boggling. And I actually, so I shared it on my Instagram. I'll forward you the link. And I shared it on my Instagram. And interestingly enough, I had a lot of acupunctures, because we all learn this in theory. That's the theory. We don't really often see this with our own eyes. So I think that a lot of   Mike berkley (26:45) Please.   Michelle (27:00) acupuncturists that saw this were like blown away. They're like, my God, this is exactly what it says in the textbook. And to actually see it with your own eyes is amazing.   Mike berkley (27:09) So I'm going to share a little story with you that's completely apropos of the story that you just told   I'm going to tell you a story that's a little bit different than what you told me, but it's the exact same outcome. So about 10 years ago or 12 years ago, there was a study done. First of all, let me talk about the uterine artery impedance index. The uterine artery impedance index is an index that determines the flow through of blood through the uterine artery.   Uterine artery at its end point has branches that come out and enervate the ovaries. So the ovaries are getting their blood through the uterine artery. And so the more patent and effective the uterine artery is, the more blood will get to the ovaries. And so there was this little study done.   where they did a transvaginal ultrasound with a color doppler. And for the listeners who don't understand that, you know, when you have an ultrasound and the doctor looks at the monitor, it's all black and white and gray. But with a color doppler, the monitor is color. You can see all color. It's not just gray. And so they did these transvaginal ultrasounds with a color doppler to determine the uterine artery impedance index. The higher the index,   the lower the amount of flow through of blood through the uterine artery. So they took a bunch of women, they did this and they wrote down the uterine artery impedance index numbers. and by the way, when they did the transvaginal ultrasound, you could either see no blood or just a little blood in the uterus, in the uterine lining. Then acupuncture was given to the patient and...   Michelle (28:37) Mm hmm. Mm hmm.   Mike berkley (29:00) 25 minutes after acupuncture was done, they repeated the transvaginal ultrasound with a color Doppler and two things happened. The uterine artery impedance index dropped like three or four points and you could actually see a red line right across the uterus. So you could actually perfectly well see evidence of enhanced blood flow into the uterine environment which   you know, really I'm talking about the ovarian environment, but you don't see it on the ovaries, you see it on the uterus. And it was fantastic. So it's exactly what you're saying, a little bit of a different study, but the same outcome.   Michelle (29:43) more specific to fertility. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow, incredible. So fascinating. I mean, it is really fascinating when we get to see with our own eyes, something that has been, you know, taught for thousands of years, and to actually see science and you know, I look also housing the mind   Mike berkley (29:45) Absolutely. Yeah. Pardon.   Michelle (30:04) that also reflect that in modern science, but the heart math and the heart -brain coherence that they're finding is pretty much proving the whole idea of the heart housing the mind.   Mike berkley (30:04) you   So I don't even, I don't know anything about this. This is all brand new news to me, but it sounds really fascinating. I love.   Michelle (30:22) Yeah.   It is. And this is why I love talking to acupuncturists. Cause you just told me something that I did not, I thought I heard about it, but I didn't hear it in that detail. And I'm learning so much talking you. So this is why I love coming together with fellow acupuncturists because I always, always learn something new.   Mike berkley (30:44) as do I from you, thank   Michelle (30:46) of course I could talk to you for   But I would love for you to   can people find you or find more about you?   Mike berkley (30:53) Yeah, thank you so course, I'm Mike Berkeley and my website is berkeleycenter .com, which is B -E -R -K -L -E -Ycenter .com. And I'm happy to speak to anybody, answer anybody's questions. There's no charge for that. And I'm a plain, simple, down to earth guy. And I'm just here to help people.   Michelle (30:55) Yeah.   Yeah. You got the New Yorker mentality that I miss that I'll be honest, the culture of New York, I really miss since I've moved. So it kind of brings me back home to like, you know, the accent and all that. So Mike, it was great meeting you. I really enjoyed our conversation and thank you so much for coming on today.   Mike berkley (31:35) Well, I want to say it was an absolute pleasure and an honor to meet you. I enjoyed our conversation so much and thank you so much again for having me as a guest. I'm grateful.